Brooke Summer 0:00 Hello amazing business owners, I wanted to add a quick note to the beginning of this episode. And let you know that in the beginning of 2021, I recorded some guest episodes and then I dropped the ball I lost a team member. And these episodes kind of fell through the cracks, but they're still amazing and so I still wanted to share them with you. And today's episode is from Dr. Michelle Mazur, we're going to talk all about marketing, and bro marketing, and how women can really excel in marketing. And I'm really, really excited to share this with you. I wanted to let you know that there will be some links that might be out of date. But Michelle is still rocking and rolling. She is an amazing marketing coach, and I can't wait for you to hear this episode.

Welcome back. Amazing business owners. I am so excited to bring you today's episode. I know I always say that. But I really am excited. And if you ever meet me in person, you will see just how excitable I am. Today's guest is a rock star. She has a PhD. Isn't that crazy? She works with entrepreneurs and business owners to really master their messaging. And it's so funny to me, because today we're gonna talk about a term that I had never heard of until I started following Michelle. And it's broke marketing, which is hilarious to me because it's so true. And it encapsulates so many of the things that I see so well. Today's guest is Dr. Michelle Mazur. She is a messaging expert who works with brilliant business owners who are shaking things up but having trouble talking about it, how many of us really, really love what we do? But when someone asks us, we kind of just put ourselves into this little box like, Oh, I'm a photographer, or oh, I'm a business owner, or, Oh, I do eyebrows. I'm an esthetician, or oh, I'm a stylist. There are so many ways that we try to minimize what we do. And it's so important to understand that what you do matters and talking about it matters even more because you can't put yourself out there and really book the clients you need until you know how to say exactly what it is that you do. So today's episode we're going to talk about messaging, bro marketing and how not to do bro marketing so that you can really resonate with the people who want to hire you most I'm super excited to have Michelle as a guest let's listen and talk about bro marketing and rebellion and all the amazing things when it comes to mastering your messaging. A Hey there awesome people. I am Brooke summer and you are listening to business straight up the podcast for creative entrepreneurs to learn, connect, grow and build the business and life that they dream. Welcome. Let's get going and dive right in.

Hello, amazing business owners, creatives Photographers, Welcome back to another episode of business startup, the podcast for creatives who want to actually make a living doing what they love. I am so excited to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining me in your earbuds or your car stereo or wherever you're listening. I'm glad you're here. Today's guest is a rockstar and has a PhD and the only reason that I'm bringing that up because Dr. Michelle Mazur is a badass at marketing and messaging and I'm emphasizing that doctor in front of her name because of the jerk that said Dr. Jill Biden should drop the title because, hey, why should a woman keep the title she works so hard for right? I call bullshit. And I believe and declare that any woman who has worked hard for that title should keep it and be proud of it. Dr. Michelle Mazur is a messaging expert, who works with brilliant business owners who are shaking things up, but having trouble talking about it, and I'm so honored to have her today. Thank you so much for being here. Michelle,

Dr. Michelle Mazur 4:17 Thank you so much for having me. Brooke, I loved the introduction. I had many things to say about Dr. Jill Biden, because I have also been told not to use the doctor in my title, because people will think I'm too smart. And then they won't want to hire me. Yes. And it was a man who told me this, of course, but I'm always reminded of it that Oh, no, my clients like the fact that I'm smart.

Brooke Summer 4:47 Oh my gosh, why would someone say people will think you're too smart. Like where does that mindset even come from? Has anyone ever told a guy that ever?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 4:56 No, no. And oh, and people would be too intimidated by me. Because I have a doctorate,

Brooke Summer 5:01 I don't know if you're familiar with Jen Hatmaker, she wrote a book called fierce free and full of fire. And she talks a lot about how women are basically told that we have to shrink ourselves to fit into whatever box is appropriate for the situation. And I feel like this is a huge part of that, right? Like too smart, too loud, too intimidating to whatever. And it's either that or it's not enough. There is no in between there is no happy medium.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 5:26 Yeah, it's the ultimate paradox. You're either too much or you're not enough. Absolutely. And

Brooke Summer 5:30 that is basically the story of our lives when it comes to being a female in our current culture.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 5:35 Yes, yes, it is, unfortunately, bullshit, and

Brooke Summer 5:39 we are going to end it. Yes,

Dr. Michelle Mazur 5:41 I'm here for that.

Brooke Summer 5:43 Not just for ourselves, but for our daughters, and for the next generation and the generation after that, because it's important. Sorry, this is totally not what we're going to talk about today. But it's important. So we're doing it.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 5:54 I love it. You brought it up. I mean, it's interesting, because authority and establishing your authority is an important part of your message and your marketing. Right. So it does kind of fit in.

Brooke Summer 6:04 Yes. So I have followed your work for a little bit. And we are in a mastermind together, actually, now that I say that, is it a mastermind? I don't know. I don't know what to call it. But it's a group of awesome women. And I know a little bit about your background, but for anyone who hasn't met you before, either in person, virtually whatever. Can you tell us a little more about your background, your journey? And what brought you to where you're at now?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 6:27 Ooh, such a good question. So I have been in love with communication or studying it or trying to master public speaking since my sophomore year in high school. So it is a long, long,

Brooke Summer 6:42 10 years, right.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 6:46 I realized the other day that I got my PhD 20 years ago. So yeah, I've been in the field for a very, very, very long time. And it really started in high school, I took a public speaking class, I was the quiet girl who knew all the answers, according to one of my teachers, and it was really hard for me to speak up to raise my hand and so they force you to take public speaking, and it was terrible. Oh, well, you know, the nerves, the knocking of the knees. And then there was still this voice in my head was like, Okay, this is a skill you need to master. So I decided to do it competitively join the speech and debate team. So I suck at something and I'm like, you know, it'd be a really good idea. I'm gonna win competitively. Yeah, I'm gonna go out there and compete again, and have people critique me. But it really like helped me master the skill of public speaking. And by the time I gotten to college, I was one of the top performers on our speech and debate team, because communication really is this skill. And it's a skill for all of us to master. But it also made me a little bit obsessed with communication, like it was my favorite thing to talk about my favorite thing to do. And really, that's why it led me to a PhD in communication, because I was just intensely curious. I wanted mastery in this skill. So I spent hours in the woodshed getting it. And then I thought, Okay, well have a PhD, I'm going to be a professor, I landed the job at the University of Hawaii, I'm moving to paradise instead of Northern Iowa, right? So it's like, yeah, I'm on this track, except I hated being a professor. Like it's nothing like being a graduate student, which was so much fun and collaborative and great conversations. And also, living in Hawaii is really hard, especially if you're single. And there was this time, it was like, Okay, I either have to go for tenure, or move, like quit my job and move. And that's what I decided.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 9:05 So I landed here in Seattle. I went into corporate I did market research for a while and I was still helping, like our executives get ready for presentations and figure out how to message things. Even though that wasn't my job. It wasn't my job at all. But they would always come to me because they knew I was really great at it. And eventually a friend said to me, he's like, you know, you have so much knowledge about communication, that you need to do something with it, like start a blog, start something and get what you know, out into the world. And that's really how my business started was just at as a blog. And originally I did like public speaking, a coaching writing keynote speeches, helping with Speaker marketing, and I don't really love the speaking industry.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 9:54 It's very well bro marketing and salesy and they also don't pay speaker is like the speaking industry doesn't value speakers and the knowledge and their experience. And I just couldn't do that anymore. And so I was at this identity crisis in my business because I recorded the last episode of my podcast for the year. And I'm like, alright, that's done. I can't like I cannot do this anymore. But I don't know what I'm going to do next. And luckily, it was Christmas. So I got to spend some time thinking, and that's when the three word rebellion, which is my messaging framework, like hit me like a ton of bricks, because my clients were using their speeches, in their marketing for everything in their business, not just speaking, I'm like, Oh, I could really be making a bigger impact helping business owners communicate about what it is that they do and how it's unique. And the results that it give and the three word rebellion. For me, it was a huge part of that. So that's where I've been spending my time, like helping people create this message that is makes them stand out, but is also very aligned with their ethics and principles. Yes,

Brooke Summer 11:09 Oh, my gosh, and love that. For all of my listeners, whenever I have a guest, I have a set of questions that I send out a questionnaire you guys have heard me talk about it with clients, I have it for podcasts, too. But it kind of gets the wheels going, so to speak. So to learn a little bit more about someone to nail down what we want to talk about things like that. And one of those questions is, What experiences have you had that helped build your confidence as a female entrepreneur? And I'm sharing this because I've really loved Michelle's answer to this. And I believe it will kind of set the tone for everything we're going to talk about today. She said, claiming authority for myself. And I absolutely love that. So Michelle, I'm curious, what does that mean for you? What does that look like?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 11:51 Yeah, for me, it's a constant reminder that my PhD matters, all of the communication theories that are rolling around in my head, inform the work that I do for my clients on their messaging, and marketing. So I remember that I remember like that I wrote three books, and I have a podcast that has, like, 230 episodes. Now, you know, like, I am insanely curious. I'm a good listener, I asked amazing questions. And all of these things, my strengths, my experience, my education, that's a part of my authority. You know, the fact that I've been in the industry for over 25 going on 30 years, I owe a lot about that I have what it takes to help people with this, I am probably, well, I should just be more definitely like, I am probably the most qualified person to help someone with their messaging, because of my background. And so for me, that's what claiming authority looks like. And you know what I know, somebody's probably thinking right now. Oh, but I don't have a PhD and I have had in the business for 20 plus years. And it's like, doesn't matter, you have something that you're bringing to the work that makes you an expert and claiming authority is an inside job, you have to decide for yourself first before the world will see you as that authority as that expert.

Brooke Summer 13:20 Yes. And for someone that's having hard time doing that. They're like, Okay, I hear you. I'm on board. I want to claim authority, but I don't feel like an expert. What can they do? What will help them get past that?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 13:33 So I created this exercise, and it's named after breaking bad. It's called I am the one who knocks and there is this moment in the TV show Breaking Bad where Walter White is having an argument with his wife, and she's very concerned that somebody's going to come to their door one day, and knock and murder him because you know, he's a drug dealer, right? Yeah. And he just gets deadly serious. And he's like, You think that of me that I am that somebody's gonna knock on our door and murder me? No, no, I am the one who created this business. It has the GDP of a small country. And he just talks about all of his accomplishments in this business. And he ends it with an I am the one who knocks Wow. So I created an exercise around that where you answer like five different questions about like, what is your education? What is your experience? What have you created in your business? What strengths do you bring? I mean, StrengthsFinder is a great place to start but understanding like, Are you curious, are you good listener? Do you ask great questions like those kinds of things are all authority building and then writing it out in a statement? Like I am the one with the PhD in communication. I am the one who's recorded 230 podcast episodes. I am the one who wrote three books. I am the one who knocks and writing that out and keeping it somewhere you can see it. So when you start doubting your expertise, you can ground yourself in it.

Brooke Summer 15:08 Oh my gosh, for anyone watching, if you see me look down, it's because I'm taking notes because I absolutely love that because so many people that don't have a PhD, I don't even have a college degree because I went to college and I didn't like it. And I was like, I don't think so. But I have run a successful multi six figure boudoir studio, I have helped several business owners, you know, build the business of their dreams. And having those reminders is so important for us to say, You know what, it doesn't look the same for everyone. And that's okay. And that's actually beautiful. Not just okay, that's amazing.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 15:39 Yes, yeah. And just owning that for ourselves.

Brooke Summer 15:43 Yes. So when a creative person goes into business for themselves, they usually do so because they love what they do. Not because they love marketing and accounting and bookkeeping, and everything else that goes into running a business and I say it over and over and over again, you can be the best at what you do. But if you can't market yourself, you won't be doing it for long. Exactly. Ah, marketing is something that can be so hard for creatives, because we're so attached to our work, whatever we're creating, we really love. And we're so attached to it, we put our heart into it. And sometimes we have a hard time sharing or talking about it. How does someone become the go to person in their niche? How can they start talking about what they do, and claiming that authority? Not just based on what they've already done? But based on their skills as well?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 16:33 Hmm, this is such a great question. Because what I have noticed with creatives and online business owners is that we create something that we love, we create a service, we're able to get clients through word of mouth and referrals. And that's great. And we see amazing results. And we think, oh, yeah, I need to get this into the hands of more people. So they think that means they need to go market marketing is the next step. And it's actually not, and fortune 500 companies have figured this out, like they know that if they create something amazing before they bring it to the market and start marketing it, they work on the message that is the important piece. Because if you aren't able to talk about your work to communicate the value of your work, then you're kind of stuck. It doesn't matter what type of marketing technique you use, right? The message isn't there, it's going to fall flat. So it's taking a step back and thinking, Okay, I have something great. It's getting amazing results. My clients love it, I get referral business, I have to figure out how to talk about this first before I start marketing. And that is always the missing piece.

Brooke Summer 17:59 Yes. And when you say talk about this, obviously, it's not just talking about what I do. So I run a boudoir studio, I work with women, I take pictures, that is literally what I do. But to talk about things like the transformation, the experience, things like that, are there any other additional pieces that can kind of be built into that that we should be focusing on?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 18:21 Yeah, so for me, there are really three essential pieces of messaging. And one of them I've dropped already, which is the three word rebellion, which is really a way to position yourself, but position yourself more as the expert that is getting to a result that your audience wants to talk about. So when I think about like a three word rebellion, it's really encapsulating the change you're creating for your people. So for example, one of my clients, she's a marketer. I'm working with me on her message. And her three word rebellion is profit without worry, because she works with business owners who have lives outside of their business and they are constantly worried about money. And she is exceptionally good at helping them profit without worrying and when people hear that they're like, oh, wait, I want to profit without worry. Tell me more. Tell me how to do Yeah, and really that's what a three word rebellion does. It's so different from be like, I help x do Y so that they can see it's this two to five word short statement that really talks about the results you're creating so people get curious and then once you have that you can build out your messaging around that idea. And I call that the client journey.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 19:46 This is like how do you take people from not knowing you not knowing this message to be bought in to want to be your client want to be your customer and there are certain Converse actions you have to create to fill in those gaps. I always make the joke, you know, it's great to have a three word rebellion that you feel confident about. But one of my favorite three word rebellions is Simon Sinek. Start with Why. And it's not like when he came up with that he was on the streets of Seattle, Washington, just saying, start with why start with why start with why. No, no, no, no,

Brooke Summer 20:22 he had like, creepy.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 20:24 No, that'd be so where we'd be like, What is wrong with you know, he could say it, but then he had messaging to support it. And so that's client journey, that second piece. And then the third and final ingredient is storytelling, right story is how we make emotional connection. So it's your story, your clients stories, I even have a category called elevated social proof, where it's like you look outside of your business for examples where you see this happening, just like the start with my story. So when do we have all three pieces, we have all of the raw ingredients to apply it to a marketing strategy and start implementing it. And then we can do it consistently. Because we know what the heck to say

Brooke Summer 21:09 yes. And that makes everything so much easier to it makes all of your blog posts or podcasts or whatever, however you create content, it just makes it that much easier. Yeah.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 21:19 Oh my gosh, yes. And like I create, one of the things I learned when I was in corporate was that the big companies have what they call a messaging guide for all of their products, right? So that everybody knows how to talk about this pair of shoes, or this refrigerator, right in their marketing. And that's what I ended up creating for my clients is a message guide so that they can go to and be like, Okay, what is it that I'm talking about on social media? What kind of blog posts do I need to write? How am I going to write my sales page? It's all in the guide, because now you know how to talk about your thing.

Brooke Summer 21:57 Interesting. I'm writing that down. I feel like we hear a lot about like standard operating procedures, branding boards, all of that stuff. And no one really talks about a messaging guide, how do you talk about things? What does that voice look like? What is the message behind that? What goes into that? So I'm definitely writing that down. Something to think about? For sure. Yeah. I never thought of myself as a rebel. It's funny, my husband and I have been together 12 years, he is rule follower. And I'm like, rules, whatever. But I really, I never thought of myself as a rebel. And recently, in the past few years or so I realized that my work is literally rebellious in nature, because I've gone against so many of the things that we have learned as women in our culture. And so when I saw your three word rebellion framework, I was like, Ooh, rebellion. What does that mean? So tell me more about that. Yeah,

Dr. Michelle Mazur 22:49 it's interesting, because I think people have this image that a rebel is somebody who's wearing leather has a mohawk completely covered in tattoos? Yes, yes, smoking a cigarette, right. And I'm like, that is really not what a rebel is. A rebel is someone who is going against the status quo and wants to make a change for the better. Yeah, and so rebels come in all different forms, like I am not the traditional rebel, like, I look at myself as kind of like a nerdy academic. But still, like, I want to change the world with better communication like that is what I'm here for is helping people communicate so that they can make their impact. And I think anytime we're doing something unique, going against the grain questioning the status quo that makes us a rebel. So there are many entrepreneurs who are just like, Wow, so many of these programs don't fit me or that's not who I am. It's like, Yeah, cuz you're a rebel. You might not think that of yourself. But you are.

Brooke Summer 23:55 I absolutely love that. I'm curious, just for my own reference, and other people might take it or not. Can you swear in your three words?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 24:04 Yes, I don't see a problem with that. But at the end of the day, you also are leading people to change I'm trying to remember if I've created any three word rebellions with swear words in it. I don't think I have and I'm not diametrically opposed to it.

Brooke Summer 24:20 Okay, well, from a like an ethical or morality standpoint, I don't really care. I was just wondering, thinking in long term, like marketing like URLs, stuff like that. Facebook ads, you know, all of these things we have to kind of consider because I always encourage my students to choose things that are small business appropriate but Empire capable.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 24:40 Hmm, yeah, it because you know how we've had that trend with like, swears in books and, you know, book titles. And I've heard from multiple authors. You're like, I really wish I didn't swear in my book, or you know, for my title because I can't run ads.

Brooke Summer 24:56 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like Jensen. Taros. You're a badass Yeah, but I love that book. But that's interesting. I haven't really thought about, can you swear it all in ADS? Like are there any swear words? No, I

Dr. Michelle Mazur 25:08 do not believe I think Facebook just rejects it.

Brooke Summer 25:12 That's just a bummer. Oh, my gosh swears. Oh, okay, so what questions can someone ask themselves to get to that three word rebellion to kind of root it out?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 25:23 Yeah. So the three word rebellion, how I created it, it was rooted in social movements. Because what happened was, I noticed this pattern between the social movements that were on the rise, like Black Lives Matter and the me to movement and the never again, movement. And my favorite entrepreneurs, like start with, why are the five second rule or everything's figure out double? Right? Like, I was like, Oh, that's so interesting. These two groups are creating a message that's about change. And I thought, Oh, I wonder if I use questions from social movements, if that would work for my clients and finding their core message.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 26:02 So I had my clients free write on questions like, What Are you rebelling against? Like? That's one of the signature questions like What Are you rebelling against? And then the second part of this, which is always a little bit more difficult, is the change you want to create in the world because rebellion on its own isn't enough, right? Because then we're just saying like, there's a problem. There's a problem, this sucks. But we also have to have some type of solution, we might not know how we're going to get there, how that's going to come to be and that's fine. But the second set of questions are like, what is the change, you want to create? Yes, and free riding on that, and not letting the how get in the way, because it's funny with clients, I see all the time, they'll write like pages and pages and pages about their rebellion. And then it comes to the change they want to create. And it's like three paragraphs, and I'm like, you could go deeper here.

Brooke Summer 27:04 Oh, that's so hard to think about those things, though, because they go hand in hand. But at the same time, it's like complaining to the manager somewhere without offering the solution. Like it just doesn't work. You want your voice to be heard that if you don't have the solution behind it, that doesn't work out very well. Oh, my gosh. So what are you rebelling against? And what change do you want to create in the world? And that will kind of lead you down the rabbit hole to figure out those three words.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 27:33 Yeah, so this is where my background and research kind of it comes in. So what I say in the book is that these words are just data, right? So you just want to get everything you have all of these ideas in your head, you're really close to your work. And the purpose of the prompts is to get those ideas out of your head and onto paper where you can deal with them, right? I believe your three word rebellion exists, it just needs to be on Earth, because it's somewhere in that mass of words. So that's where you get to go through, like, take a little time off from the writing, I always recommend that distance is always a good thing. And then you can start rereading it with an eye towards, like, what are words that I'm using all the time, like, I once did this the client and she used the word joy 50 times in her free writing. And I'm like, Ah, so joy is really important. And she's like, Oh, how did you know that? Like frequency? Words. And then it's like looking for unique turns of phrase that are kind of interesting, interesting verbs so that you can create like a word bank of potential words that can go into your three word rebellion. And then once you have those, you can start playing with the words and either creating a three word rebellion, that's a battle cry.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 28:56 So it starts with the verb like, you know, your start with why or you're creating a what I call naming the change agent, which is a little bit more abstract, but you're making people curious about how you create change. So the five second rule is a great example. Because you hear that and you're like, what is that Mel Robbins? I don't know what that is. So you Google it, you find out then you're like, Oh, okay. So it's about experimenting, and playing. But at the end of the day, you're really looking for your three words to be something that makes people curious, makes them lean forward and think like, Oh, what is that? And how does it apply to me? What does it mean to me?

Brooke Summer 29:44 Interesting, and in the back of my mind, because I'm a website and geek girl over here. I'm like, it would also make a great website.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 29:52 Yeah, it can make a great URL. It makes great program names. I mean, the cool thing like it's your custom hashtag, because I mean, it's going to be the worst Once you say over and over and over again, in your marketing to make a point, yeah, so and those are the words you want to be remembered for, like one of the best experiences I ever had I was when we used to be able to go to events when I was at an event, and somebody saw me and they didn't know my name, but they're like, You are the three word rebellion woman,

Brooke Summer 30:19 which is amazing. You're like, Hell, yes.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 30:22 Yes, I proud to be known for that.

Brooke Summer 30:25 That's awesome. Oh, my gosh, I love that. Let's talk about bro marketing. I really love this term, because it's very easy to know what we're talking about without actually having to explain it, but it's also calling out the behavior. So for you what is bro marketing? And why is it not a good fit for so many business owners? Hmm,

Dr. Michelle Mazur 30:51 excellent question. So row marketing is the use of psychological triggers psychological hacks in order to shut down our critical thinking ability, eliminate consent, and get us to buy to not make a purchase decision for what is best for us, but make a purchase decision based in fear or fear of missing out or because they say that they're this authority, but they're really, really hot, right? So and our brain loves these tactics, because these tactics are actually fairly neutral. And because we use them, like every time we go to the grocery store, we buy what we like, what's familiar what's on sale. And so our brain is like, Oh, this is such an easy way to make decisions, great. But when we're making business investments, we should be thinking about what is the best investment for my business and not be tricked by scarcity and FOMO and false curated vulnerability, as my friend Maggie Patterson calls it, but instead, we should really be critically thinking about our investments. And I call it bro marketing, not because it's only men who do it, women are bro marketers, too. Yeah. I think this is important. Women are bro marketers, as well, because it's really this wink and the nod to the patriarchy to this top down, I know what's best for you, almost authoritarian style of marketing. And when we see it, especially if we're people who care who are empathetic, usually makes us feel kind of bad when somebody tells us to do it. Like we're just like, oh, like, I don't want to send that email because it's going to make people feel guilty or make them feel less than or hurt them in some way. And we think, well, these are the people who know what they're doing. And they say this work, so I should send it and then we feel like bad marketers, when really we're bad, bro. Marketers, yes.

Brooke Summer 33:03 And how many women are thinking that they're really bad at marketing when, and then men too, but so many of us as creatives, especially, that are typically more empathetic and usually a little more sensitive? We tend to think we're bad at marketing when the reality is we're just bad at that type of marketing. Yeah,

Dr. Michelle Mazur 33:25 it was funny. I asked that question on my Instagram the other day, and it was 97% of people said that they had the thought that they're bad at marketing, they're bad at sales. And it's like, no, you're just bad at row marketing. And really, that's okay, because it actually means you care.

Brooke Summer 33:47 Yes. How can someone see if there are traces of it still in their business?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 33:52 Hmm, that is such a good question. One of the things that I always recommend people do is formalized what their ethical principles are for how they want to market. And if I was running the Association for online business owners and could have like an ethical guideline, a one thing to think about is, is this enhancing people's ability to make a decision that's best for them? Or is it detracting because a lot of bro marketing is really detracting us from making the best purchasing decision and I believe that your potential clients, your potential customers should have agency so going through with that kind of AI of like, am I helping them make a decision or I'm hurting them and making a decision? And then you can go through and let your gut be your guide. Because you know, when there's a turn of phrase that makes you go, ooh, no, and then stop and say, why is that? Like, what about this phrase? And most of the time, it's because it's using some form of manipulation. And it's not sitting, it's not aligned with us. And then that's a great way to root it out. And also, like if you're using something like scarcity, or there's lots of controversy around countdown timers, and I think it's because it's like a symptom of bro marketing. You know, like, if you're using a countdown timer, how can you do that thoughtfully, like, is it real scarcity? Like, if you're teaching a course and it starts on a certain day? Well, yeah, use a countdown. Because people need to know when it ends. But if it's an evergreen thing, and you're not really taking away to access it away from them, then it's fake. And that's manipulation. And then it doesn't feel good.

Brooke Summer 35:55 Yeah, I'm not a big fan of those I know, they're software that will put a countdown timer and then email and it will reset the webpage every so often. And it just feels yucky to me. Yeah,

Dr. Michelle Mazur 36:06 I mean, I think sometimes it can be. And I've heard from people who like them and don't like them, they'd like them because they know when they have to make a decision by on something. And that can be very helpful in, especially when it's like a lower price product, you don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about like a $45 investment. That's true. But when it's you know, like a $3,000 product, or course, then yeah, it just, it can be that's fashionable. That's true.

Brooke Summer 36:37 I spoke with another guest recently, who typically, if it's a course that is opening on a certain date and closing on a certain date, there is that scarcity. I am of the belief that it never hurts to ask. And so I have literally asked course creators, hey, I know you're not launching this right now. But can I get in on it? Because I need this information now. And I've never been told no, ever. Um, and someone was so shocked that I would even ask that, that I would even think that that's a possibility. And I firmly believe that the answer to any unasked question is always no. So it can't hurt to ask. But I thought it was interesting that I didn't see it as out of integrity for them. I didn't see it as them line at all. I didn't see it as them saying that the course is only open for this time, because that's literally when they were launching the course. But yes, reels are still available. And so someone told me once Well, if you don't actually close it and let other people in, then that's out of integrity. And I don't see it that way.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 37:41 Yeah, it's interesting. Like, Well, I do two workshops, the bro marketing overthrow and the marketing uprising. And I always kept those to Around 30 people and I close cart at a certain time because I want to send a survey out to get like information to see what people want to learn. So that's the reason I closed cart. But if somebody emails me after cart closes, and I still have a few spots left, yeah, I will let them in every time because why not? They want the information. They haven't missed anything yet. I can forward them an email with the survey in it. But yeah, I don't feel like that's out of integrity. I feel like they're more out of integrity be like, No, you can't get in this class that I still have four spots left in,

Brooke Summer 38:23 Right. I know, that just feels weird to me. And for any service providers, if you were like, I only have this. So for instance, in my boudoir studio, if I had a specific set that was set up for a month, and it ended April 1, and someone contacts me April 3, if that's that is still set up. I'm gonna photograph someone on it like why not? Why the heck would I? So some people say well, it's not fair to other people who may not have asked and I'm like, well, that's their problem. They didn't Yeah.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 38:51 Yeah. Like asking is always appropriate, I find and if they don't want to let you in, they're just going to tell you no. And that's cool. Like, you can go somewhere else and find the information or find another boudoir photographer. And maybe you took down the set and you're like, I don't have that one. But I have this what do you think like, big right? So might as well ask, and it isn't like I don't feel it's out of integrity at all.

Brooke Summer 39:15 I don't either. Not at all. But I've heard that a lot lately. And I'm like, Oh, no.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 39:20 You know, it's interesting because I think this backlash against bro marketing and this rise of ethical marketing. I think one of the things bro marketers taught us was to follow the formula to a tee. And with ethics. It's super messy. There's no black and white and you are just doing your best to uphold your ethical principles. And it's not going to be 100% perfect all the time and people might disagree with how you're executing on them. And that's okay, because it is it's super messy. And if you think oh no, once it's closed, it should always be closed. Then cool. That's So you're a principal. And you and I see a little bit more gray in that. Yeah, that's cool, too. Like, yeah, I think we have to stop being so dogmatic about like, Oh, this is pro marketing. And it's bad. It's like, there's a lot of nuance there.

Brooke Summer 40:14 Yes. I think it's also more human. Because there are a lot of things that you can't budge on. Like, for instance, you gotta pay your taxes. Yes, you can file an extension. But there is a date that you have to have that done by, yeah, when it comes to other things. We're all human. And we all have things that happened. I know last year, and I've spoken about this on the podcast before, but last year, I was working with several guests to get them scheduled. And then I went into panic mode for COVID. And I was like, What the hell do I do my whole family's home? Like, I don't know what to do. And so I didn't contact them back. And then this past couple months, I felt terrible. And I contacted them. I said, I messed up. I'm so sorry. I'm asking for your forgiveness. I ghosted you. And not one person was upset with me, not one. Yeah, it's humanity, right, like here? And do I feel that I was out of integrity in that? No, I think we were going through a global pandemic. And we are all doing the best we could write. And we all just, that's all we're ever doing is the best we can. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So when it comes to pro marketing, for those of us that do not feel aligned with that, what are some alternatives that are just as effective, if not more than brand marketing?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 41:29 Yeah. So this is interesting, it actually goes back to your messaging. Because bro marketing is a very specific way of communicating in your marketing people give you swipes and templates, and almost done for you email series, and all of that. And usually, that stuff is loaded with real marketing, because it works. So when we do the opposite, we have to focus on a different type of message, a message that a, you're aware of the different decision points and attitude shifts that people have to make in order to buy into the work with you. And it's also about making an argument for your work, like a logical argument for why this is good for people's businesses. And that is always a little, it's much, I don't wanna say much harder, but it's more work upfront to create that type of messaging that then you can deploy on your website and in your marketing and sales pages. Yeah, but it's more powerful when you have a message that it is clear that, Hey, I see you, I empathize. Because it's not about poking at pain points.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 42:43 It's about empathy, like, I have empathy for the issue you're having. This is why and I got this idea from Kelly deal. She talks about having a villain. And so you know, you have a villain. So you're not blaming them for like, Well, it's because you suck that you have these problems, which a lot of let's be honest. So clearly say like, there's a reason you have this problem. And here's how it's impacting you and how you're struggling. And here's the solution that I can offer. Right? This is how I can help and be of service. And this is what you get, and this is how much it costs. But it is definitely different than Yeah, it's a different type of message than what we have seen traditionally, in the online space.

Brooke Summer 43:33 So why do you need a message that's bigger than you and your business?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 43:38 It's so funny. You're asking because I'm in the middle of writing, rewriting the three word rebellion book, I'm revising and expanding. It's not like a massive overhaul. And I was just working on that chapter this morning.

Brooke Summer 43:51 It's perfect.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 43:52 Yeah. Well, I think the one thing is like building a business, we have to gather our right people gathering our audience, and a message will attract the right people and repel the wrong ones. So when we start having a message that's bigger than our business, we are giving people a place to belong in a world where they sometimes don't feel like they fit in, they hear our message, and they're like, Ah, they're doing things differently. I want to be a part of that community because that's the worldview that I have to. So it does create this feeling of belonging and it also creates when people get really passionate about your message and about your work. They talk about it to other people, and they become the messengers of your message. And then your work. Your message takes on a life of its own like it doesn't need you all the time. Because other People are out there talking about it, recommending it being like, Oh, hey, I heard this podcast about the three word rebellion, you should really check it out. And that is the best form of marketing. But it's because we've gathered people together. And we care about the people we gather. And we are giving them away to talk about our message.

Brooke Summer 45:22 Yes. And, yes, All yeses. I'm just thinking of all the different students that I've worked with. Like, for instance, I have a student recently who is a senior photographer specifically for marching band kids, and kids that didn't feel like they just they needed senior photos, and they didn't feel like they're pretty enough for senior. And I'm like, Dude, that is your message. Get that out there. Because everyone has something that they may be able to identify with or that maybe they've gone through in their past, or they've watched people that they love go through. And that inspires us to say, You know what this needs to change? Here's what I have to say about it.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 46:00 Mm hmm. Exactly, exactly. And giving those people who want a place to belong, a place to express themselves as a part of your community is an amazing thing to do for them. And it's an amazing thing to do for your business.

Brooke Summer 46:16 Yes. And so many people resist that. They resist polarizing people. I know I did for a long time, I was very afraid to offend people, I didn't want to turn people off. And last night, I just wrote a post on my Facebook, my personal one, and I'm like, Look, if this bothers you, you don't belong here. If this bothers you, you don't belong. And I just laid it out. And I remember feeling afterwards. And this was just last night feeling like Hell yeah, that was awesome. Because if someone doesn't like it, they can leave.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 46:43 Yeah, like you're giving them the opportunity to opt out. Right, right, leave. And that's just going to make room for more of your right people. Because I know the three word rebellion is not for everyone. 100%. And I'm okay with that. Because the business owners who are attracted to it are my right people, they're wanting to make a difference. They're wanting to make more money they're wanting to like really get the word out about how they serve. So more people know about it. And I'm like, yep, that's what I'm here for.

Brooke Summer 47:19 Yes. Oh, my gosh, I love that so much. I love this whole conversation. I feel like so many of us play small and try to hide these parts of ourselves. I know I did. I didn't, I have new. Even my bracelet says her audacity was her crown. I love it. setting yourself up for judgment is really hard. setting yourself up for rejection is really hard. But these messages are so important. And those three words can be I was gonna say life changing the business changing. And when you change your business, you can change your life, you know, you design all of these pieces to fit in appropriately.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 47:56 And I think when you get your messaging together, it just makes things easier. Like it makes it easier to write a sales page and easier to show up on Instagram. Like it just becomes easier because you know what to say. But beyond that, you're excited to say it like you feel confident, and like an authority, like, able to go out and be like, Nope, this is my message.

Brooke Summer 48:20 Yes. And I feel like some of my students would push back on the whole idea of creating your message before marketing. And I'm thinking of something a small course that I just went through from Courtney foster Donohue, about creating the sales page, like just an a document, before you create the sales page. And having that framework, because that's your messaging, the entire thing is your messaging. All of that is your messaging. And how powerful is it to have it all in one place. You can just pull something and make the social posts, you can pull one of those little stories and make a social posts, you can just pull one of those little things. You basically have at least one year's worth of content when you preview that messaging.

Dr. Michelle Mazur 49:03 Yeah, easy. And here's the beautiful part, like I believe in a concept called Radical consistency, which is consistency of like showing up but also consistency of staying on message. And I think the best example of this is Brene Brown, she is radically consistent with her message. And I remember when her Netflix special came out I was so excited to see it. And you know what? I had heard it all before in multiple places. She wasn't out there rolling out some new messaging. She was using what she knew worked and using what she spent so much time crafting in that Netflix special, which is what you want to do because like yeah, if you create a year's worth of content, I can't remember what I had for dinner on Saturday. Do you think I'm gonna remember what you posted on Instagram? A month ago? No. Or even a day ago? No. So reusing the stuff that we're works,

Brooke Summer 50:01 Yes. And sharing the stories because people relate to those stories. There are certain stories that I've shared, especially on the boudoir side of my business that my clients say, remember that time that you talked about your saggy skin? And I'm like, Yes, I do remember that? How do you remember that? Because it's stuck in their brain? Yes, yes. Oh my gosh, this conversation is so valuable to all of the listeners, and awesome business owners and photographers that have joined us.

Thank you so much for listening today. I am truly honored that you press play and spend this time with Dr. Michelle and I, if you are someone that wants to help other people, and you know someone who can use this information, maybe they're feeling stuck, please forward this episode over to them. I know Michelle and I would so appreciate that. If you are thinking, wow, this content was amazing. How can I thank you, I have a way you can thank me. Can you head on over to iTunes and leave a review. I know it's small. I know. It's silly. I know it takes a few minutes. But it just means so much to us that helps us know how we can better serve you what you love what you didn't love what we can do for you in the future. So hit pause now and leave a review. And if you screenshot it before you hit submit, and send it over to Hello at business straight up.com. I have some free stuff for you. So please leave those reviews so we can continue helping you every week with this free content. Thank you so much for your time. Michelle, I'm so glad we could connect today. Do you have one piece of like, must have information for a woman in business who is just freaking out wants to grow our business but feels a little overwhelmed?

Dr. Michelle Mazur 51:39 Yeah, I would say start with the free writing exercises. Because even if you don't come up with your three word rebellion, you will get content ideas for days for sharing about your business. Yeah. So start there. It's a very small thing. It can be very cathartic as well. But it will help you start getting your message out in the world so that more people know about what you do the amazing work you create, and they can hire you.

Brooke Summer 52:13 Absolutely. Oh my gosh, I could not agree more. And for anyone listening, you didn't think I was gonna let you off the hook without some homework rights. I want to know what is one small thing that you are going to do this week, to really start zeroing in on your message for your business. What are you going to freeride on? What are you going to think about? And if you need the questions, I wrote them down. Don't worry. So we'll have them in the show notes. But let me know in the community which you can access a business straight up.com/community It is time to start stepping into the CEO role of your business looking at the vision long term to talk about and share what it is that you do and the transformation that you offer people. I can't wait to see what you do with your business. You have the power to impact the world. And I'm excited to help in any way that I can watch you do it. Thank you so much Michelle, thank you so much for having me. And Oh, I almost forgot where can people connect with you? Oh, yes. Distracted. Oh, that

Dr. Michelle Mazur 53:09 is all right. You can connect with me over on Instagram. I'm at Dr. Michelle Mazur. Feel free to slide in my DMs and tell me what you took away from the show. And if you're interested in getting some taste or questions of the three word rebellion that is also available for free at three word rebellion, calm and for everything else. I'm at Dr. Michelle mazur.com.

Brooke Summer 53:33 That's amazing. I will be going over to three word rebellion.com because this has wheels turning for sure. Running two businesses. There's always things to do when it comes to messaging. So thank you so much for being here today. I so appreciate you and for anyone listening as always, if you have any questions or if there's something I can help with, just let me know. Have an amazing rest of your day. Thank you so much for listening to business straight up. I'm so glad that you could join us today. Check out the show notes for this and all of the episodes at business straight up podcast.com And I can't wait to talk with you again. Have a great day.