Shayna Hardy 0:00 Hello amazing business owners and welcome back to another episode of bold with Brooke, the podcast and place to be if you want to actually make a living doing what you love. You may have noticed by now that my voice sounds a little different because I'm not Brooke. I am today's guest host Brooke has been extremely sick, and in the process of trying to heal has lost her voice. So I'm filling in. My name is Shayna Hardy and I'm a boudoir and branding photographer in Baltimore, Maryland. And I've been a friend of Brooke's for years and admire her work. So I'm happy to and excited to fill in for today.

Shayna Hardy 1:05 I'm also so excited to introduce today's episode so that you can get some actionable content, even if Brooke can't speak. She is working on healing, and will be back as soon as possible, but she didn't want you to go without!

For the next couple of weeks, while Brooke prepares more episodes, you'll get to hear some of the most LISTENED to conversations in encore performances, with guests hosts introducing them, like me!

Even if you heard them before, listen in, I promise you'll get something new out of it. I know that even if I've heard the same advice several times, I will hear something new, or see a different perspective each time.

Shayna Hardy 1:09 Today's episode is interview with Alex Loveland, formerly known as Alex Shockley, an extremely successful and straightforward photography business coach who has helped over 15,000 photographers all over the world, to grow their businesses and see abundance and lives they didn't think were possible. This episode is technically about photography, marketing ideas that work. But even if you're not a photographer, you're going to hear a ton of gems and takeaways on how to price your business, look at the actual work you're putting in, and market your business appropriately so that you're making a living and not working yourself into burnout. And while a lot has changed for both Brooke and Alex and their lives, these are still concepts that remain consistent: marketing, profitability, and sustainability. Those are all skills we can learn on right?

Shayna Hardy 1:58 Thank you so much for being here today. I know how much Brooke loves working with our students to help them grow their businesses. And she can't wait to be back in full force on this podcast very, very soon. Let's listen in to finances, marketing and travel marketing ideas that work with Alex Loveland.

Brooke Summer 2:16 Hello, they're gorgeous business owners. Welcome to bold with Brooke, the podcast for creative business owners to learn the marketing and business skills they need to get more clients and design their lives on their terms. So we can actually make a living doing what we love, am I right? I am your host Brooke summer, and I'm an entrepreneur, educator and champion of women reminding them to embrace and step into their power. I'm bringing almost 20 years of business and marketing experience straight to you to help you get more clients and run a sustainable and successful business without burnout or overwhelmed. Let's jump into today's topic.

Brooke Summer 2:58 Hello Hello, amazing entreprenesses and entrepreneurs. I am so excited for today's episode. I have an amazing businesswoman with me today. And we're going to talk about things that a lot of people shy away from. So I'm excited for that. But before I go too far into that, I do want to ask that if you are enjoying any of the episodes that you're hearing, if you can head on over to iTunes and leave a review. I would so much appreciate that. I know that it takes a few minutes, but it really helps me know what you want to learn more about. We have so many topics that we can go over and it just helps me know a little bit more about what I can help you with. So let's move right in.

Brooke Summer 3:43 I am thrilled to have the Amazing Alex Chalkley with me today. From Alex Chalkley boudoir. She is a boudoir photographer in Virginia, who is crazy successful and just so down to earth and I love reading pretty much anything she says. Alex, thank you so much for being here today.

Alex Loveland 4:04 Awesome. Thanks for having me, Brooke. I'm excited.

Brooke Summer 4:07 I really do love Okay, one thing that I really really love about you is that you don't shy away from topics that are sometimes like taboo, like money.

Alex Loveland 4:19 Yes, yes, yes, yes, I am very no nonsense about that.

Brooke Summer 4:24 People so many people are afraid of money. So we're gonna go dive way into that and we have before and it was actually the most downloaded episode that I've ever had, because I feel like people need this conversation. But before we go there, first tell me a little bit more about you. Who is Alex? What has your journey been like to get to where you are today?

Alex Loveland 4:48 Oh man, how far back would you like me to go? Whatever you feel is relevant, whatever you want to share. Okay, so I have been a photographer my entire life. I got my first camera when I was seven and I'm really stubborn if you know me, prising. So I decided at a really young age that I wanted to be a photographer. I had no idea what that meant, or how I was going to make money or anything like that. So the rest of that came later, but I did end up going to Savannah College of Art and Design and majoring in photography when it was time to do that. And, but really, I didn't start portraiture until after college, I was a fine artist and worked with film and developed in the darkroom, and focus more on landscapes and seascapes. Well, once I graduated, I was like, Oh, shit. I have $100,000 in student loans, and I have to figure out how to treat them. Mm hmm. So I started weddings after that, and then I realized that I really, really hate weddings. So eventually, I found Sue Bryce, who is totally my hero and my inspiration for what became my boudoir business. And that was in 2012. So that, yeah, that was six years ago already.

Brooke Summer 6:02 That's amazing. Isn't it funny how fast time flies next year will be 10 years and boudoir for me? And I'm just like, floored.

Alex Loveland 6:10 Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I love it.

Brooke Summer 6:12 Oh, my gosh. So we're just gonna dive right into money. Right. It's such a taboo topic. And so many business owners will just say six figures. Right. And that's their, their magic term. Like, that's the elusive goal that everyone wants to get to. And I was there to, like, I remember when I hit six figures going, Okay, now, what do I do? But they don't really share any behind the scenes. And you do. So in your journey. Have you had any like crazy aha moments, a time when you realized that money doesn't have to be so scary. And that you can kick ass and make whatever you want, depending on the amount of work you want to put in and your pricing and all that good stuff.

Alex Loveland 6:59 Yeah, it's definitely been a journey, I think. So when I first started, I was one of those. I think like, when I first started, I was charging like $150 for everything on a disc back then. that dates me because who even uses discs anymore, but that's what I was doing. And I eventually when I found Subarus, that's kind of when it all shifted for me. So I learned that you could actually make a real living from this. And that kind of blew my mind. But I did have money blocks like most people do. And I really had to work hard to overcome that. So I basically went from 150 for everything on a desk to a $1,500 average sale almost overnight.

Brooke Summer 7:42 Wow.

Alex Loveland 7:42 And that was a really terrifying jump for me. I remember walking, this was back in 2013. So I remember like pacing my house and saying my new prices out loud to myself until I started believing them. Right. So that that was kind of the big shift to me. And since then, which is time and experience and, and having new goals for myself. You know, it's kind of inched up over time.

Brooke Summer 8:06 Yes. And what did that I know Sue Bryce had a lot to do with it. And I absolutely love her as well. What did that look like though? As far as what did you change in your business? To go from 150 to 1500? Average?

Alex Loveland 8:23 Um, that's a good question. Mostly just my price list. I mean, my work didn't drastically improve overnight. It was just a different way of structuring things. And I started in person sales, and that I think is crucial to having a profitable business. Like there's for me, there's not really a way around that if you want to make serious money in photography.

Brooke Summer 8:43 I agree completely. People try to argue with me on that all the time. And I mean, I'm a big fan of you do you and you do whatever works for you. But I'm telling you, in so many successful people tell you in person sales work, there's a reason.

Alex Loveland 8:59 Right? Exactly, like have fun if you want to, but when you're ready to get serious, I'll be here to help you.

Brooke Summer 9:04 Right, exactly. So when you went from a 150 to 1500, average, and you just changed your pricing, did you lose clients?

Alex Loveland 9:16 I did lose most of my clients at first. Yeah. And I think that's a big part of it. Because when you raise your prices, you start attracting people who actually want to invest money in photography. Yeah. And I think there's a big shift that happens there. So I love so I'm still friends with a lot of my clients from the very beginning. So I you know, I'm not trying to talk trash about them at all, but it's just it's a different type of person, and I feel like you pricing is also one of the ways that you differentiate yourself from other photographers around you. Absolutely. Because will associate value with price. So if you're more expensive, your clients who are searching for a photographer are going to learn your prices and be like, Oh, well, she's more expensive than this other person, she must be better. That's just psychologically how our brain works.

Brooke Summer 10:11 Let's talk about that for a sec. So people associate value with price, I completely agree with you. I've done the homework on the psychology. But a lot of people will argue with that. And so I would love to maybe give some examples. So for instance, if you buy a $20 shirt at Walmart, and then you buy $100, shirt at Nordstrom, which one are you going to take better care of? That else? You have? What else? Have you seen as far as price like being higher priced? Who are you seeing come into your business more and more?

Alex Loveland 10:48 Well, I think it's, it's just people who value photography. So we all have different value systems. I am, I've never been like a brand name girl, you will not find me in the Coach store buying a first you just won't. So I, you know, a regular like bag from Target or just even a canvas bag is good enough for me. I don't need anything like that. So it just comes down to what people value. And so I think by being priced at a certain point, you just start naturally attracting those kinds of clients. And I think your Walmart example is a great, I always say you don't go into Walmart looking for a Coach purse, right? Yeah, you don't go to McDonald's looking for a steak from Ruth's Chris. So true. It's just it's just the basic psychology of that. And it really does work. It's so true.

Brooke Summer 11:38 It says, and a lot of people, again, like want to talk themselves out of it, because they are not their ideal clients. And I always tell my husband, like he would be happy to spend $1,000 to $2,000 on a new horn, which I am like, really? Everyone has different things that they value, whereas I would eat ramen for a year to go on a killer trip at the end of the year.

Alex Loveland 12:05 Exactly, exactly. No, my fiance and I have that same conversation, like he'll drop $13,000 on a welding table for his shop. I probably spend that same amount or more in travel each year, and he doesn't owe right value.

Brooke Summer 12:21 Yeah, he just doesn't see. But everyone has different things. And we all know that person that is broke and can never go out. But they drive a brand new truck.

Alex Loveland 12:32 Totally. Like, everyone just has different values. And it's okay not to be your own ideal client.

Alex Loveland 12:39 Yeah, I think I mean, I get that because I was there, you know, at the beginning, but once I started actually looking at my financial goals, there comes a time where you just have to step up to the plate and be like, how badly do I want this?

Brooke Summer 12:54 Yes when I was in training for marketing, someone told me you can't spend from someone else's wallet. Yeah. You cannot decide what's expensive for someone else, because everyone is different. So true.

Brooke Summer 13:11 That's so true. So what would you tell a new business owner about pricing themselves appropriately? Do you think that they should start low and work their way up? Do you think they should start at a point that's sustainable and match their services to that pricing structure?

Alex Loveland 13:31 I think the I think it's important to start from the big picture and work backwards. So what does that look like? Yeah, so if you if you want, I can walk through a really simple exercise for the listeners to figure out your pricing. Okay, cool. So the big question is, how much do you want to make a year? And this we're talking about take home, so not gross revenue? But after taxes after business expenses?

Alex Loveland 13:56 How much do you want to make a year? So I like to start like, if we're talking base level here, I like to start with about a $60,000 figure there because running your business is hard freakin work, and you want to get paid like a real salary for it? Yes, so I'd like a $60,000 starting point. So kind of the general rule and this is very general, everyone's overhead is going to be completely different. So you're gonna have to do the legwork on your own for this. But these are the general rules. So we typically get to keep a little less than half of what we make, generally speaking. So what I'm gonna do is take $60,000 and multiply that by two and a half, and I'm gonna get $150,000. So $150,000 is now our new goal for the gross revenue of our business for a calendar year if we want to take home 60,000 of that. Yeah, okay. So then we'll take 150,000, And the next step is to figure out how many shoots per week is realistic for you to do. So. How many clients? Can you actually get in the door? How much time do you have in a week? These are really important considerations. So if you're, if you're struggling to get one client a week, you're not going to make five shoots a week, your realistic goal. Yes, right away, you can work up to that. But it's important to be realistic. So if you're getting one client a week, let's say your new goal for a new year with a new marketing plan, and just really busting it is going to be two clients a week.

Alex Loveland 15:30 So then we have to decide how many weeks a year do we want to work? Do you have an answer for that question, Brooke?

Brooke Summer 15:38 I do. And that's actually something that's really important to me, because I have two kids. And I take the entire month of December off

Alex Loveland 15:45 Me too.

Alex Loveland 15:47 So yeah, I work about 40 hours, or I'm sorry, 40 weeks a year. 40 weeks. Okay, cool. My mind number is 46. And I will actually it's probably realistically more like 44-42, I travel a lot. I travel a lot for work, too. So I don't know how to quantify that. But I think you know, 48-46 is a really great starting point for most people. So for our example, I'm going to use 48. So we're going to take two shoots a week and multiply that by 48. And we'll get a total of 96 sessions per year.

Alex Loveland 16:22 And this is really just for portrait photographers, wedding photographers, if you do a mix, you're going to have to do it like section by section, how much of your revenue Do you want to come from weddings, how much from newborn how much from, you know, you can break it down by group depending on if you offer different things or not. I'm 100% boudoir so that this is what I do. So and we'll take 150,000, which is the number we got earlier, and we're going to divide that by 96 sessions per year. And now our new average sale goal is $1,562.50. So that's how I come up with like, what average sale I'm going for per client when you break it down that way. And then what I like to do from there is add a little bit of a buffer because what if we don't meet our goal?

Alex Loveland 17:07 I still want to get to our, if we don't meet our booking goal, I still want to get to our financial goal, if that makes sense. Yeah, so I'm gonna bump that average sale, probably up to like 1750. And then what you're gonna have to do is create a price list that is designed so that you hit that number every single time with very little effort.

Brooke Summer 17:26 I absolutely love that I when I said 40, I was taking off travel as well. So I don't really know how to quantify that either. But someone recently told me and she's kind of a financial person day job and a photographer on the side that you don't get to decide how much you make. And I was like, kind of why we go into business like you do get to make that decision. When you're the boss, you get to decide that.

Alex Loveland 17:54 Absolutely. That's that's the whole point of it. I think.

Brooke Summer 18:00 That's huge. And let's talk about another piece of that, too, that a lot of people kind of ignore and stick their head in the sand like myself, but I have a bookkeeper that takes care of it for me is taxes, huh? Oh my gosh, and sales tax, like eats me up?

Alex Loveland 18:17 Yeah, I think you just have to develop systems around these things. So I have different accounts. In my business, kind of bank, I guess. And every time money hits my account, I automatically take 40% and shove it in My Tax Account, pretend it never even existed. Yes. And then, yeah, I pay quarterly fees from there. And I pay sales tax from there as well. So it kind of covers everything. You can you can have separate accounts for those two things if you want to. But I I'm disciplined enough where I can keep on keep on top of it.

Brooke Summer 18:48 Yes, that's so smart. I mean, you are, finance is definitely a strength for you. And while I get by, and I understand the goals and stuff, I just, I don't enjoy it. Like to me, it's soul sucking. So I have people that take care of that for me.

Alex Loveland 19:06 It's important to recognize because if it's not your strength, you definitely want someone solid on your team, because it's such a huge part of it.

Brooke Summer 19:14 That's true. And I think that a lot of times people go well. Like for instance, I'm really good at math. It could be my strength, but I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. And it's okay to let those things go in your business.

Alex Loveland 19:27 Absolutely. Absolutely. And I would I would go even further and say that it's important to let those things go if they're not making you happy because it then what happens is you fall behind you get penalized, especially for dealing with taxes. Like it's just it becomes a huge, huge mess. So if it's not your strength, outsource it.

Brooke Summer 19:45 Yes. And then you can spend your time doing what you're good at.

Alex Loveland 19:49 Right? Exactly. And that's why we work for ourselves. We only like doing the things we want to do. Exactly. I've decided that I'm pretty much unemployable at this point.

Brooke Summer 20:00 Because I don't, I don't think I could go into an office because I say what I want, and I wear what I want, and I do what I want. It would be so bad I would be I would be fired so fast. Right? Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. Well, I absolutely love your formula. And I know that you and I have talked a little bit earlier this year, I was strictly ala carte and did not have any collections. And you inspired me to bring them back.

Alex Loveland 20:26 And how's that going?

Brooke Summer 20:29 Um, it's about half and half. I'd say about half my clients love collections and half don't. And, but it's still pretty new. I just implemented it in September. So so pretty new. Okay, cool. But I like the option of having everything together. And I think that that is a nice option for my clients as well. Plus, the pricing is where I want it to be. And so it kind of just makes it easy, which is kind of cool.

Alex Loveland 20:59 I introduced collections at the beginning of 2017. And within I mean, as soon as I did that my average field jumped from 2100 to $3,100. Like, if you do,

Brooke Summer 21:10 Let's actually this wasn't even on my list to talk about. But since we're there, let's talk about collections. Do you think that three or four is better? What do you there's a lot of people that think that your top collection should be something that you expect to never ever sell? Right? Because it's that outrageous and outlandish?

Alex Loveland 21:29 Yes. Yep, I agree with that I have had historically three collections. But I did just add a fourth for 2019. So I'm really curious to see how that's going to work. And my goal in adding that fourth collection was to increase my average sale. So I've kind of bumped everything up to point people to the second from the top collection, which is a little more a little bit more expensive than my middle collection was this year. But I do believe that, you know, your your top collection should be a little bit like way too much actually. And your bottom collection should be something that people aren't really going to be interested in buying at a really high press price point.

Brooke Summer 22:10 Yes, definitely. And do you price your collections to be collectively lower than ala carte?

Alex Loveland 22:17 Absolutely, yeah. That's the whole point. Yeah, so kind of like a discount. Exactly. And I actually even put that on my price list. So in 2018, my middle collection was 2800. And in parentheses next to it. I have for $4,000 value. Absolutely. So people can see really clearly how much they're saving by going up that route.

Brooke Summer 22:36 Yes. Do you price your Digital's individually or as a group?

Alex Loveland 22:41 No, it's all or nothing for me. Sweet. That's how I used to do it as well. Minor individual now, but I used to do the all or nothing. I see benefits to both. I feel like there's good and bad to either option. Sure. Yeah. Depends on what works for you. Sweet.

Brooke Summer 22:56 Well, you had mentioned earlier that you had money blocks that you needed to work through. So what did that look like? Like? What did you struggle with?

Alex Loveland 23:05 I think it all comes down to like, I think a lot of people struggle with not not feeling deserving of that. You know what I mean? In general, people struggle with self worth and whether or not we deserve to be paid what we want to make. Yeah, and I don't I wish I had a solid answer for how I got over it. But I think looking at my future and thinking about my own financial goals really helped because I my stubborn I'm a Taurus. So like my stubborn nature kind of took over and my determination, I was like, well, this, if this is the goal, then this is what we have to do to reach it. So for me, I think that was really helpful. And I know a lot of people don't operate that way. But like I said, I was when I went from 150 to 1500, I really literally just had to say it out loud to myself until I started believing it.

Brooke Summer 23:54 I think that's so important. And I kind of want to dive into the whole future thing. Especially for self employed people. How many of us are not planning for our futures like retirement? We don't have that 401k We don't have that built in a system through an employer. So what did you look at when you say your future? Were you looking that far in advance? Were you looking at five years? What was your plan?

Alex Loveland 24:21 I always am in the future. So but you mentioned something we don't have a 401 K but we have something better. We have a SEP IRA. Oh, yes, yes, yes. And that with a 401k. You're limited to I think don't quote me on these numbers, y'all. But look it up if you're interested. But I think Hold on, I will look it up real quick because I do want this to be accurate. So when you're in a traditional 401k, Your contribution limit for 2018 was 18,500 per year. Okay, compare that to a SEP IRA where if you get if you start making some serious money Your contribution I believe can be capped at about 55,000. Wow, it's I think it's 20% of your gross revenue, not gross revenue, gross profit, something like that, look it up, because it's huge, it's huge. And of course, that is pre tax. So you will be taxed on that amount when you pull it out. But still being able to put that amount of money in investments that will make you a millionaire so fast.

Brooke Summer 25:29 And I think that, and again, I'm not a financial advisor. And this is not a strength for me. But I believe that my accountant told me, you can actually do this SEP IRA backwards to meaning that in April of 2019, if you look at your numbers in 2018, and you're kind of freaking out, and you're like, I'm gonna pay a ton of taxes, you can actually put some in at that point and count it towards 2018.

Alex Loveland 25:54 You can you can do that before your taxes are filed. Okay, yes, right. Yeah. Before you file taxes for the previous year, you have until you know, the tax deadline to file your taxes. So any leading up to that point? You can, yeah, if you have the money laying around, which not a lot of people do, but that's the problem. Well, yes, that's true. So if you get if you get your taxes back, and you know, before you actually file them, you're like, shit, well, if I dump 60k in or 55,000, which is the cap for the SEP IRA, I don't 55,000 Then I'm not taxed on that. But who's going to have $55,000? laying around? Right? Most people Wow.

Brooke Summer 26:32 That's so true. And I feel like, okay, so let's talk about like, the idea, the concept that when you make more you spend more like, we always think that when I make more, I'm gonna be good. Oh, my gosh, that's it. But you spend so much more to not just a business, but personally.

Alex Loveland 26:53 That is so true. And I'm so glad you brought this up, because I just read a profit first by Mike Michalowicz for the first time. And that is the whole premise of that book is we have a hard time setting aside profit and paying ourselves more. Because the more money we make in our business, the more we're spending, it's so crazy. So I recommend anyone who has not read his book, go get it today and read it today. It will change your freakin life as far as your business finances go. So he recommends limiting. So I used to have everything in one business account, like all my income would come in, I would let it snowball and build up in there, to the point sometimes where I would have you know, 80 to 100,000, just sitting in this account. So when when you're looking at that number, and you're like, Okay, well, do I want to play him this like really expensive trip to Greece and, you know, get some promotional stuff. And you know, it's a business expense. Sure, I can drop 10 grand no problem. Like, you just it doesn't hurt as much. Yeah. So now what, what I do is I have all my income go into one main account, but on the 10th and the 25th of each month, I divvy it up between four categories. Profit your category. Yeah. So its profit, its operating expenses. So that's all your bills, that and all your cost of goods and things like that. So that comes out of operating expenses. There's owner's pay, and there's taxes.

Brooke Summer 28:21 Interesting, I have always worked from kind of a third mentality. So a third to taxes, a third to business and a third for income,

Alex Loveland 28:31 basically, yes, that's really close. And the only difference here is that he's doing profits. So his theory with profits is that. Well, we want to be as profitable as we can. So I let I let the profit build up in the account. And what he does is he says, At the end of each quarter, you pay yourself a bonus from that profit account. So you take half of everything that's in that profit account, and you pay it to yourself as a bonus, and it cannot be invested back into the business. It has to be used for like fun, or paying wide if you still have debt. But if you're debt free, that is your reward for running a business. And I love that idea because it becomes so motivating. Yes, I was just thinking that like what a crazy motivation. Yes. And instead of I love it, because instead of most people will wait till the year's end to give themself a bonus. Yeah, but a quarterly bonus is like, look, that's only 90 days away. I gotta hustle if I want that money.

Brooke Summer 29:27 Right. And that also, so everyone is motivated by different things. Maybe someone wants a new car. For me. It's travel. And I actually agreed with my husband, that at the end of June if I met a certain revenue goal that I could book The cruise that I wanted. Yeah. And I met it in May. Because I was motivated to do that. Right and really paying yourself half of that profit, that money. Money is just a tool. You can use it to do whatever you want. Maybe it's donating somewhere to a charity that you believe in. But ultimately, it's just a tool.

Alex Loveland 30:04 Exactly. So I am a huge fan. I just started it last month, but I'm a huge fan. So I really recommend anyone who that sort of intrigued, definitely go get that book and read it. It's a good one.

Brooke Summer 30:15 That's crazy. I love it. I have put it off, because the thought of multiple bank accounts terrifies me, because I already have like, I don't know, 8-10 I don't know.

Alex Loveland 30:26 Oh, you should see.

Brooke Summer 30:28 Oh, my gosh, when I log into the bank thing, and I've just scroll down, I'm like, This is not okay.

Alex Loveland 30:34 Because everything has a purpose and a plan. That's true. And that prevents you from spending as much as you would if it were all just in one big ass account. Right? That's very true. I should probably embrace that. I'm not very good at that. Yeah. It takes practice, it was a little scary for me at first, because I'm so used to seeing like, I'm the person that has a backup to their backup to their backup to their backup. So, you know, I have I have my he calls it the vault account, which is like the emergency fund for the business. So I have that. But it's a little lower than it was because I wanted to split up these other numbers. So yeah, it's a transition. But I think in the long run, it'll be good. I'm excited.

Brooke Summer 31:11 That's super cool. I think that we'll have to put that on the book club list.

Brooke Summer 31:18 So I know that whenever we talk about money, especially when it comes to small business owners, newer photographers, the temptation for someone that's just starting out is to think that this happened overnight. We recently last year, built our dream house and moved in last year. And I've heard like snide comments of Oh, must be nice.

Alex Loveland 31:40 Oh, my, don't you hate that?

Brooke Summer 31:42 And people don't realize that I lived with my in laws for seven years, right to make this happen, right? Like we worked so hard to make this happen. So what can you tell someone who's just starting out and wants to be where you're at right now?

Alex Loveland 31:58 Well, Well, it's, it's easier now than it was you know, when when you and I started Brooke. Facebook wasn't really a thing. There weren't these educational resources that we have now? Yeah, someone jumping in now could do what it took me five years to do in about 18 months.

Brooke Summer 32:17 Oh, my gosh, that's so true.

Alex Loveland 32:18 You know what I mean? So it's really hard to say I mean, but my best advice is, don't give up. I mean, there are so many times along this journey where I could have thrown in the towel. But when it's your dream, you just have to be persistent. Put in the work. Don't be scared of hard work. And just literally don't give up because it took me it took five solid years for the ball to start rolling on its own. Yes. You know what I mean?

Brooke Summer 32:45 It's yeah, there's so many years of hustle, I saw something recently that said, being an entrepreneur means living your life, like most people won't for a few years, so that you can live your life like most people want to. And so for the rest of your life,

Alex Loveland 33:01 it's so true. And I think it's important also to make the distinction. So if there are any photographers listening out there, and they're like, Oh, well, I'm in year four, and I still have to do model calls. I still have to do contests. I still have to do giveaways. I still have to do flash sales. That's okay. That's normal. That's normal. 2018 was the first year where I did not have to rely on those things to keep my calendar full.

Brooke Summer 33:26 Wow. That's for sure. I think about think about bigger brands, like think about even the super successful stores that you see, like even Target has sales. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, all the Yeah, it's so true. It's just part of marketing. It's just part of being top of mind for people and reminding people, and I think especially boudoir, it takes a little bit of stalking for someone to feel comfortable.

Alex Loveland 33:51 I can't even tell you how many phone calls I get from potential clients. And they're like, I've been in your group on Facebook for a couple of years and stuff, right. And now I think I finally am ready. So like, even if you have a private group on Facebook, which so many of us recommend as boudoir photographers, it just because you open it, it doesn't mean the inquiries are going to start coming out of the woodwork.

Brooke Summer 34:14 Right. And I think that a huge part of this too that we need to consider is that Facebook is an amazing resource and Instagram is a great source for marketing. But you need to get out from behind the computer

Alex Loveland 34:27 a little bit. Yeah, that's important, especially with boudoir. It's so vulnerable. You got to earn people's trust before they're gonna get naked in your studio.

Brooke Summer 34:37 Yes. Oh my gosh, that's so true. So, I last year, someone kind of came after me in a Facebook group, and basically said that I was a business person first and not as much of an artist as she was. And now her words are always in the back of my head, had not in a bad way, but just in looking at examples of other business people who are both successfully at the same time you went to art school? Or did you run a successful business? So what do you have to say? Uh, what do you think about the idea of the starving artist?

Alex Loveland 35:25 I think it's bullshit.

Alex Loveland 35:29 I, I'm very similar to you Brooke though. I don't consider myself creative. I don't consider myself an artist. Even if I went to art school. I yeah, I can't create an original thought or thing to save my life. I really can't. But I'm so much more of a systems person. So what I've done is just, I'm not saying I'm not talented, I do have a certain set of skills artistically. I just don't, I'm not the kind of person that can walk into a shoot in a new situation situation and wing it. That's not me. Yes, my brain doesn't work like that. I wish it did. There are so many talented photographers, our industry, and I'm just literally in awe of their creativity, and how they can walk into a room and creates, I just, I wouldn't even know where to start. It's just not how my brain works. So and I absolutely do not think artists need to be starving. I think we have skills and that we should charge appropriately for them. And the reason that people find value in our work is because they can't do it themselves. And I think that that's important to remember.

Brooke Summer 36:31 Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think that it's so important to charge appropriately. Because you value what you do. If you don't value what you do. No one else will. Oh, that's so true.

Alex Loveland 36:45 And I mean, we have to charge too, because we have families to support. We have rules to keep over our own heads. We have $100,000 in student loans. I paid it off, Lord, I mean, come on.

Brooke Summer 36:54 Oh, my gosh. Is it completely gone?

Alex Loveland 36:56 It's gone. It's gone. Oh, that's amazing. No, I just paid off at last in May. Wow.

Brooke Summer 37:04 And how many people come out of school with that now?

Brooke Summer 37:09 Wow Oh my gosh. Well, one of the reasons that I like sent you the message to be on the show today was because you posted a while back. And of course now we can't find this stupid post. But in your group, about finding new clients and marketing and marketing is just one piece of a successful business and overall strategy. But I loved what you shared because your ideas weren't complicated. They weren't time consuming, or expensive.

Brooke Summer 37:35 So what are five quick marketing tips that you can give someone to help rev up the momentum in their business to get to that place of financial freedom?

Alex Loveland 37:45 Oh, man. Okay, so starting at like the most basic, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Your Facebook Profile, your personal Facebook profile. You need to have a decent as headshot for your photo, oh my gosh, yeah, do it. Like, you have to have a professional looking photo of yourself. If you're a professional photographer and want to be perceived as such. Yes, it drives me crazy. So that's the first thing also making sure that you are easy to find a lot of people overlook that one. With the privacy things these days, I understand the tendency to want to have like your profile on lock. But you have to at least make sure that your website is visible, your Facebook page is visible so that people who are searching for you can find you and can get in touch. Yes. So those are the two things you can do on like your personal page. And then if you have a private group, obviously that's that's a huge one having a private group in general, especially if you're a boudoir photographer. So having a private group, but also making sure that when you are posting things in there, I always link my contact information at the bottom of everything I post. Because if you post this, go ahead crazy important it No, that's sorry, go ahead. Oh, important because if you post something that inspires someone to book a shoot, you want to make it as easy as possible to reach you.

Brooke Summer 39:10 Yeah, because people are like, especially, especially because people are on their phone, people on their phone.

Alex Loveland 39:15 And they're lazy that if it takes too much work, they're not going to do it. So you have to link them I always link my contact form from my website, my website in general, my email, my Instagram, like I give them everything because I don't want them to have to look very far if they're trying to get in touch with me and are ready to book a shoot.

Brooke Summer 39:32 Absolutely. That's so important. I actually wrote something about calls to action and how important they are but I never use it in my Facebook group because I almost use that in a different way. So I completely agree with that. I use it everywhere else but yeah, that's so important

Alex Loveland 39:47 girl. It's so important. So so important. So that's one major thing. Another thing and this is mostly for boudoir photographers I would assume but before and afters are like literally gold

Brooke Summer 40:01 I do this with every shoot because I forget

Alex Loveland 40:04 every single shoot.

Brooke Summer 40:07 Oh my gosh, you're killing me. I forget I

Alex Loveland 40:11 every single shoot. It's imperative because people, normal people who are looking at finished boudoir photos what's the first thing that goes through our head as women? Oh, um, I don't look like that. Yeah, yep, exactly. I don't look like that she's beautiful. I'm not that beautiful. I could never do that. So what the before and after does is it just illustrates the fact that every one can do this.

Brooke Summer 40:33 Yes. And I, I keep pushing. I have students that are family photographers, and I don't two families. But who needs a hair and makeup day a little more than other people? A mom.

Alex Loveland 40:45 No kidding. I think providing that for family shoots is absolutely imperative. Oh my gosh, but no one does. That's insane to me. Because guess what, right? If mom likes how she looks in the photos, she's going to buy them all. Exactly. What Are you doing? I used to I Yeah. When I was shooting families, I would absolutely include that in my session fee.

Brooke Summer 41:04 Oh my gosh, absolutely. That's so important. I think it would be a total game changer. And it would set someone apart to Yes, it absolutely. Is.

Alex Loveland 41:12 That plus a consultation for family shoots is imperative. I mean, yeah, and a little bit of Photoshop y'all. And good pose. Right? Right. Come on.

Brooke Summer 41:23 I don't know if you know Misty, she's a friend of mine. And she is a zero Photoshop studio. And she and I disagree vehemently on this. But I've had clients that their husbands put cigarettes out on their arms. They've been through hell who am I? And who is anyone else to tell them that they have to keep those scars and photos?

Alex Loveland 41:45 Girl my clients come to me because I Photoshop so I think everything I think there are lots of people who love the no Photoshop thing. I'm not one of them. And neither am I.

Brooke Summer 41:58 Right? Well, and retouching has been done for decades. This is not new. It's not new. We just have a word for it now in Photoshop,

Alex Loveland 42:06 if anything, if anything, it's getting more realistic. Yes. Like we're not trying to make people look like totally different.

Brooke Summer 42:16 Correct. I always tell my clients, I will not Photoshop you to be someone different than you are, that I will show you the best version of yourself.

Alex Loveland 42:24 Yeah, my goal is never my clients to look at an image and be like, damn, she photoshopped the hell out of me.

Brooke Summer 42:30 Right? I actually, I had a client that her husband was not very nice to her and told her, well just Brooke just photoshopped everything. You're not that pretty. And I actually showed her before and afters. Wow, show her how much I did not Photoshop her. Yeah. And she is now separated from him.

Alex Loveland 42:51 But I was gonna say

Brooke Summer 42:55 oh my gosh. So let's talk about one of my favorite subjects, the travel piece to all of this. Travel can be super expensive. It doesn't have to be but it can be. But I have found in my business that there are ways to travel and work while traveling. So that I'm getting paid. My husband travels for work often. And sometimes I will tag along with him because then my hotel is paid for Yeah. And I shoot when I travel. So how can someone set themselves up for a trip maybe abroad maybe in the US as a business trip and actually make some revenue instead of just spending 1000s to travel?

Alex Loveland 43:32 So I this is kind of a loaded question. There's a lot of different ways that you can do this. Now in the age of you know, Facebook ads and Instagram, it's easier to reach people in different locations. When I was doing this five and six years ago, that wasn't really a big thing. So what I did was I picked a few places that I knew I would probably want to go to repeatedly. And I literally just went and built a network in that place.

Brooke Summer 44:00 So are you talking locally or abroad? Because I feel like I mean domestically?

Alex Loveland 44:05 Yeah. I mean, I would go to like Austin and California. Okay, yeah, yeah. And but but definitely in Europe too, because I lived in Amsterdam for five years. So yeah, I would travel around and I think the best way is just to go and get to know people and give out gift vouchers for free shoots, especially if you're doing boudoir because boudoir, you know, the trust factor is huge. So it's kind of extend the first branch. You know what I mean? And let definitely, they're more likely to trust you and go with the experience and then the ball starts rolling from there with referrals and it just grows over time.

Brooke Summer 44:44 Do you work with email marketing? Do you use that all?

Brooke Summer 44:50 Okay, that's actually how I book my travel shoots is through email marketing, because I have people that will forward them to their friends in different places and I booked them like that so easily. Yeah, that's right. The same could be done with Facebook. Yeah, right. Exactly. That, like tag someone in California or tag someone in Austin. Exactly.

Alex Loveland 45:10 Yeah. There's so many different ways to do it now. So

Brooke Summer 45:15 definitely, it's, it doesn't have to be. You don't have to book your calendar solid, right? That's one thing I struggle with, because I'm like, Well, I want to pay for the entire trip. But I had to let that go. Because I also wanted to enjoy the trip.

Alex Loveland 45:31 That is the challenge. Every time I travel for work, it's like I get home and I'm exhausted and my fiance's like, Well, what do you mean, you just spent three weeks in Europe? I'm like, Yeah, but I was working the whole time. Right. And traveling on top of it. It's exhausting.

Brooke Summer 45:47 Yes, it's just a kind of drain too. But it's so rare. Yeah.

Alex Loveland 45:50 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I used to travel every. When I was living in Amsterdam, I would come back to the States every six to eight weeks. So I mean, talk about exhausting.

Brooke Summer 45:59 Oh, wow. Wow. Yes. I think that we have a trip every month coming up until February. And that's too much. And my husband and I were talking about, I think one trip a quarter is good.

Alex Loveland 46:14 That's our goal.

Brooke Summer 46:16 I think that's good. And one of my goals, actually, my business goals is to live abroad for a month every year.

Alex Loveland 46:24 I love that.

Brooke Summer 46:26 That kind of changed when I had my daughter just because things are a little different now. But it's still a goal. It's just put off a little

Alex Loveland 46:33 you can do with kids.

Brooke Summer 46:35 Absolutely. And I would definitely bring my kids, but she will be in more of a traditional school, whereas my son is not. Okay. So it's a little different. Yeah. But it just depends on the timing.

Alex Loveland 46:47 Oh, totally, totally.

Brooke Summer 46:49 So what is a piece of advice that you would go back and tell yourself five years ago, if you could?

Alex Loveland 46:57 Five years ago? Um, I think it's tricky. Because five years ago, I was in a really different situation than I'm in now. So like, Wouldn't even apply? You know what I mean? I think I would just say, keep going. Because, yeah, I had just gotten on the right track. So I would just be like, Yep, this is it. Keep doing it.

Brooke Summer 47:21 Yes. And that track is not always easy.

Alex Loveland 47:23 No, no, it wasn't there was no easy is not.

Brooke Summer 47:29 Right. So keep going is like something that you need to keep hearing on repeat in your head.

Alex Loveland 47:35 Absolutely. And I'm lucky because I was born with that naturally. So but yeah, if you need it, write it on your mirror. Right. And like, keep it as the background lock screen on your phone. You know what I mean? Right tattooed on your forehead? All of these things? Yes.

Brooke Summer 47:50 What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn?

Alex Loveland 47:57 Business ones?

Brooke Summer 48:00 Business or personal.

Alex Loveland 48:03 Huh? Oh, personal the first thing that pops into my head is you don't have to fix people. Out. It's not your job. Yeah, yeah. That's you. That is a tough one, I think for a lot of people to learn.

Brooke Summer 48:21 That's huge. Yeah. And that kind of goes into like people pleasing as well, which also bleeds into your business too. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think business wise.

Alex Loveland 48:33 The toughest lesson was just getting my getting my pricing in the right place, and making the jump into in person sales. Those are I mean, those two things changed my life. Not an exaggeration.

Brooke Summer 48:45 Let's, I just talked with someone else about in person sales. And I feel like it's something that's so scary for people. If you could tell someone that does not do in person sales, one piece of advice, one thing they must do, at every in person sales appointment, ordering appointment, whatever you want to call it, what would you tell them

Alex Loveland 49:07 Shut your mouth?

I think one of the most important things when you're doing the in person sales process is pre education. Right? So from the first point of contact with your client, you should be subconsciously, well, not subconsciously, you're unconsciously steering them, but you should be steering them towards what you want them to end up purchasing. Yeah, there's a lot of different ways that you can do this. One of my favorites is people love to do what most people do, right? So I always tell my clients, you know, this is what most people do. They get this package they get this album. Most people get 45 to 50 images in their album which is an immediate upsell for me because my album started at 20 images so you there's little ways you can steer people. That way. Once you get to the actual In person sales session, your client should basically already know what they're doing. And what I do. I just sit down, I do this on my laptop. So it doesn't even need to be anything fancy. We sit down on my futon in the studio, I hand them the laptop, I say, okay, everything's here for you. I'm just going to hand this to you and let you click through at your own speed. We're going to look through this once. Your only job right now is just to look and see everything that we got. And then when we get to the end, we'll circle back to the beginning and start choosing favorites.

Alex Loveland 50:29 Yeah, so I shut up and I let them look at the pictures. I mean, I will say, you know, as each picture comes up, I'm like, Oh, my God, you look great. Or, you know, since since your compliments, it's not like, it's not fake, but definitely like, love your eyes in that exact exactly that color on you is amazing. Like, look at your legs. Oh, my God, look at your butt looks great. So yeah, things like that. So I let them click through and then I go back to the beginning and tell them to star their favorites. And so I the whole time, I'm just sitting there kind of quietly letting them do their thing. Once they choose favorites, we'll pull up the price list. And I'm like, Okay, so did you have anything in mind? And I'll walk them through it one more time. At this point. They've already seen the price list about three times. And usually they know and so that's, I mean, it's so easy. There's no hard sell. I think that's a big misconception.

Brooke Summer 51:16 That is huge. I feel like so many people think that in person sales is very salesy, like used car sales.

Alex Loveland 51:22 It's so not, it's so not I mean, it's if it weren't, I wouldn't be doing it, because I am not that kind of person.

Brooke Summer 51:28 It's a higher level of service.

Alex Loveland 51:30 Absolutely. Yeah.

Brooke Summer 51:31 It's the difference between trying on something at Walmart and trying on something at Nordstrom, when you have someone outside saying, Do you need a different size?

Alex Loveland 51:38 Or you look amazing. Definitely get that one?

Brooke Summer 51:42 Yeah, it's totally different. Like, and people don't understand that. I'm not going to try and sell someone a huge canvas for a wall they don't have room on.

Alex Loveland 51:52 Right, exactly.

Brooke Summer 51:53 It gives me the opportunity to help them.

Alex Loveland 51:55 Exactly. And I have had so many, so much feedback from clients, about how much they enjoy the process and how it's so helpful. Because in the past, you know, they've gone with photographers who don't do in person sales. And what are those pictures? Do they've been sitting on a disk for a decade?

Brooke Summer 52:10 Yes, I my wedding photos are still in a drawer.

Brooke Summer 52:15 Yep, exactly. on a on a disk.

Alex Loveland 52:18 Yeah. And if you prefer had made you get together for an album design consultation, guess what? Yeah, you'd have enough. Yeah. And probably wall art.

Brooke Summer 52:27 Well, and, and they live in Florida. So in our situation, it wasn't even possible. But it's so true. It's so true. And it is our job as professionals to serve our clients. And that takes many different forms, whether it's education before shoot on what to wear, or whether it's education after a shoot on what can I help you decorate your house with?

Alex Loveland 52:53 Right, exactly. Exactly.

Brooke Summer 52:55 So, so important. I love in person sales. I know a lot of people think that I'm nuts for that, but it's it, it gives me a chance to connect to and then I get to see their reaction.

Alex Loveland 53:07 That's the best part. Like how many times if you don't do in person, sometimes have you sent a gallery and never heard back from them.

Brooke Summer 53:13 Right. And you know what they're doing when you send that gallery? They're going to look at it on their phone and see it in its two inch glory. No, nope, nope. No, exactly. Yeah. Nope. I'm gonna show you on my 50 inch television.

Alex Loveland 53:28 I mean, I just have and it's fine. But yeah, so definitely start with what you got. I love my big TV, because I like for someone to see there, but really love it.

Brooke Summer 53:38 Because so many women are like, Oh, I don't want my butt that big. I'm like, Yes, you do. Yeah. Love that. Oh, my gosh, I absolutely love that. Well, thank you so much for being here today.

Alex Loveland 53:50 Of course. Thank you. That's fun.

Brooke Summer 53:53 Isn't it fun? I love that we can just talk about, especially the financial stuff, and dare I even go into this little realm, but I feel like women especially are so scared about this stuff. Yes. Yeah. And I don't know why. Other than maybe we hope someone else would do it for us.

Alex Loveland 54:13 I honestly don't even know because it's foreign to me, because I've never been like that. Yeah, I've I mean, I was I was trying to get my first job at 14, you know, so like, I've always, I've always craved the independence that money can give you.

Brooke Summer 54:31 I do as well. I just don't want to deal with the piece of it. Like the logistics of it. Yeah. So I told my husband when we moved into this house, he goes, Can I pay the bills? I said, Yep. Just tell me how much to send. Yeah, tell me how much to transfer every month because I just don't like the figuring out the interest and all that good stuff. Right? Yeah. And I think if you're not the nerd in the relationship, then that's fine. Hopefully you're with one.

Brooke Summer 55:02 Right. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for being here. I so appreciate your input. I think that you are a brilliant businesswoman have so much to share with the world. Where can listeners find more about you find more about what's going on. Tell me about Greece.

Alex Loveland 55:19 Yeah. So I do have a an education group on Facebook for boudoir photographers. So if you are a boudoir photographer and you want to get in on that, you can just search my first and last name Alex Chalkley, and the group should pop up. It's Alex, Chalkley boudoir for photographers. And then we are hosting. I'm hosting a retreat in Santorini in September 2019 with Lindsey Ray photography, so I'm super excited about that. It's going to be amazing, pretty small group of women. But I think that's always best. That's going to be yes, it's about half full right now. So I'm excited to see who ends up going on the trip.

Brooke Summer 55:58 That will be absolutely amazing. And for all the listeners, we will link all of this in the show notes too. So you don't have to just find it. But the retreats talk to me about that. Is it a workshop? Is it kind of just a Hangout trip? What does that look like?

Alex Loveland 56:13 It's so there will be originally we were going to do two separate portions of it, we were going to do like a workshop part and then a separate retreat part. But I think we're going to combine it and just make it a little bit longer. So if you don't want to attend for the workshop, you don't have to, you'll have free time. And there's only two half days of instruction. So we're keeping it real low key, but still packed with a lot of useful information for the people who are coming for the workshop portion. Yeah, oh, it's gonna be a lot of, there's gonna be some private chartered sailboat rides with dinner and sunset on the boat, which is amazing. Lots of exploring Santorini lots of shooting each other and also bouncing ideas off of each other. That's kind of the whole point is I'd love for a group of more slightly more experienced photographers to get together and just generate some new ideas and be able to just enjoy like how far we've come basically.

Brooke Summer 57:08 Yes, that sounds amazing. I Santorini is somewhere that I've always wanted to go,

Alex Loveland 57:12 it's gonna be pretty epic.

Brooke Summer 57:15 Oh my god. Sounds amazing. So

Brooke Summer 57:20 I am just so appreciative of this conversation. I feel like I get the chance to talk with amazing women. What is your website? I know we have, we're gonna have the Facebook links. But if someone wanted to do a shoot with you if they wanted to learn more about you, what is your website, or

Alex Loveland 57:36 it's just AlexChalkley.com It's pretty easy.

Brooke Summer 57:42 Alright, I love this. Thank you so much for being here today. And I can't wait to see what happens. I'm actually seeing if I can go to Greece.

Alex Loveland 57:53 Oh, good. Yay.

Brooke Summer 57:55 Have a wonderful rest of your day. And thank you so much for being here.

Alex Loveland 57:58 Thanks, Brooke.

Brooke Summer 58:00 And for all the listeners out there. This was crazy actionable, and also especially Alex's formula on how to decide what your goals should be and to work from the future backwards. I just so much crazy, awesome information. If you love this episode, if you can head on over to iTunes, leave a review, I would so appreciate it. And also take a look at the show notes. You can find them at businessstraightup.com/podcast You can see all the show notes there, see Alex's beautiful face and get more information on the formula on her Facebook group and join us in Greece because that sounds amazing.

Brooke Summer 58:43 So have an amazing rest of your day. And as always, if you have any questions, feel free to join me in my Facebook group as well. And Alex has a ton of information as in hearse.

Brooke Summer 58:59 Thank you so much for joining me today and listening in. You can find all of the show notes for this and every episode over at boldwithbrooke.com/podcast where you can also find all the links or resources mentioned. I can't wait to work with you have an amazing rest of your day.